Interviewer:

Prime Minister thank you for talking to us today. The evidence is clear, isn't it? I was in there myself last week, you have seen the reports this week, are you shocked by what you are seeing now in Zimbabwe?

Prime Minister:

What you have revealed is a tragedy at work. 4 million people have left the country, you have shown just how much suffering there is, 4 million people on food aid because of famine by Christmas, 80% unemployment, life expectancy at 37. No freedom of association, no freedom of the press, no freedom for the people of Zimbabwe. This is a tragedy that requires the whole of the world to speak up and also to act. And that is why next week at the Security Council we will be asking for a UN envoy to look at humanitarian assistance, that is why we want a European Union envoy to look and report on the situation, that is why we are stepping up humanitarian aid today in response to what you have shown and what we have now seen. And at the same time, for the day that democracy returns in Zimbabwe, we want to work with South Africa which is trying very hard under President Mbeki to resolve this situation, and with the rest of the African countries to design a programme of economic reconstruction for Zimbabwe. And we want to play our part with the African Union and with others in making it possible for people to restore and to build some prosperity in the future in a free country with a democracy.

Interviewer:

Prime Minister you also say you are going to boycott a meeting with Robert Mugabe. In all honesty is that, and more aid, and more UN monitoring, is that enough? Isn't the time now for decisive urgent action on Zimbabwe?

Prime Minister:

Well the world is speaking up, at the UN next week, at the European Union, the aid that we are going to give, but I want the African Union/European Union summit to go ahead. I applaud the Prime Minister of Portugal for what he is trying to do to build stronger relations between Europe and Africa. This is a summit that is necessary for Africa's sake, but of course it would be totally inappropriate for me to be there if President Mugabe, and because President Mugabe intends to come.

Interviewer:

But isn't the key to confront Mugabe, it is all about one man isn't it? You would be seeking regime change, wouldn't you, you want Mugabe to go don't you?

Prime Minister:

I think everybody wants democracy in Zimbabwe. We are making an offer about reconstruction after democracy is restored, but I am not getting into the business of talking about regime change here. We want elections, democracy, freedom for the people of Zimbabwe and we want to work with the rest of the African Union in particular. And as I said, I applaud the efforts of President Mbeki to move things forward. In this humanitarian tragedy all of us must play our part and I think the African Union/European Union Summit is an important event, but of course in circumstances where we have made our position clear on President Mugabe for many, many years, it would be inappropriate for me to be there.

Interviewer:

But the Archbishop of York is right, isn't he? This is urgent. I have been in there, I have seen the state of the people. Mugabe needs to go now according to those people who are suffering just across the border here.

Prime Minister:

The urgency of the situation has led us today to increase aid. That is being processed through humanitarian organisations, through NGOs. At the same time next week at the UN this issue will be raised. The European Union must have its envoy there. All the action that we can take will be taken and I am seized by your reports of course, by the urgency of what is happening when you have so many people suffering, inflation so high, people being forced out of jobs, lack of freedom in the country is clear. I know that in South Africa itself there are more than 3 million people who have left Zimbabwe, now in South Africa, so this is a problem that is spilling over into other countries as well. And I think the important thing is the combination of action that I am recommending today and of course that the African Union is encouraged to do what it can to make sure that conditions improve in Zimbabwe.

Interviewer:

Isn't the truth, Prime Minister, that the sanctions as they exist at the moment basically amount to stopping Robert Mugabe and his wife going shopping in Europe. Surely the Archbishop of York is right and much tougher sanctions are needed right now.

Prime Minister:

We are prepared to consider further sanctions. There are in fact 130 people or so who are subject to these sanctions. I believe that these sanctions could be extended to the families of people, some more people could be under sanctions. The sanctions are an indication of the abhorrence of people in Europe about what is happening in Zimbabwe and the travel ban and of course the commercial sanctions and everything else are very much part of that, but we will be prepared to extend these sanctions and we will do so with proposals to the European Union in the next few days.

Interviewer:

All right, what sort of sanctions Prime Minister do you have in mind?

Prime Minister:

The sanctions that I am talking about are to extend to the families of 130 officials the very same bans that exist for these officials at the moment. I think you have got to understand that Zimbabwe, and what has happened in Zimbabwe, ...

Interviewer:

I am sorry to interrupt Prime Minister, but with respect Prime Minister banning officials travelling is not going to do much for the people of Zimbabwe across the border here.

Prime Minister:

It is the combination of all the measures that we have been talking about, it is the combination of what we want to do through the EU envoy, through the Security Council taking the issue up, through supporting the efforts of President Mbeki. I think you know that there is a great deal of effort being put in by the African Union and by the leaders of the African Union, particularly President Mbeki, to try and resolve this situation, and I think it is the combination of all these things, including stepping up the sanctions and including us making it clear that while we are providing humanitarian aid to the Zimbabwean people to avoid famine, we are denying any support to the Zimbabwean government.

Interviewer:

Prime Minister you have made it clear you are passionate about Africa and you have said you will not shirk your responsibility towards the people of Zimbabwe. Is this not the time now for you to make and take a decisive lead?

Prime Minister:

The lead that we are taking is raising the matter through the UN, working through the European Union, supporting the African Union, supporting President Mbeki in his efforts, stepping up the sanctions where necessary, refusing to participate in events with President Mugabe. All these decisions that we are making are an indication that not only is there an abhorrence in Britain about what is happening, but there is a growing worldwide opinion. And I think it is important to remember that within the African Union there is a growing anger at what President Mugabe has been doing and a growing pressure for the restoration of democracy, a full democracy in Zimbabwe. And it is at that stage that the reconstruction, the help for the Zimbabwean people, the economic recovery plan and these things that we are working on with other members of the African Union and other members of the European Union, these can then come into play. This is a shocking tragedy that you have revealed over these last few days, it is something that you know and I know is getting worse as a result of the failure of President Mugabe to respond to what the world is saying and to the events in his own country, and the numbers of people who have been pushed into poverty and unemployment and into suffering as a result is something that is angering the whole world and it is the combination of measures, there are no easy answers to this question but it is the combination of measures that will in the end bring the results which we want, which is the restoration of full democracy.

Interviewer:

Finally Prime Minister it is clear, having been into Zimbabwe, that this is a man-made disaster and everybody in Zimbabwe says that he has to go. That is the truth of it isn't it? Are you going to push and push for him to go?

Prime Minister:

Well the restoration of democracy in Zimbabwe is what we are talking about. President Mugabe bears responsibility for what is happening in his country which has great opportunities for the future if the problems that now exist in Zimbabwe can be resolved. And as I keep repeating, while there are no easy or simple answers to what is a complex set of problems, the way forward is the combination of the United Nations, the European Union, African Union, the pressure of all countries, including the pressure of Britain, and the statements that we are making today that we will lead in the United Nations, in the European Union. We will refuse to sit down with Mugabe and at the same time we will help with humanitarian aid for the Zimbabwean people as well as plan for the reconstruction with other countries of the country when democracy is restored. I think that is the way forward and to respond to what you have been able to reveal as one of the great tragedies of our time in the reports you have done this week.

Interviewer:

Can I just clear up one thing? Do you accept that democracy cannot be restored while Robert Mugabe is in charge?

Prime Minister:

Well the issue for us in the rest of the world is the restoration of democracy, the issue for us is then the reconstruction of Zimbabwe, the issue is then that the unemployment, the poverty and the suffering of the people of Zimbabwe is then dealt with by measures that can be agreed with support not just from within the African Union but from the rest of the world and I think that is the principles on which we are basing our approach.