President Thabo Mbeki Interview on SABC2

Tsepiso Makwetla: Hello, and welcome. You're watching a special broadcast here on SABC2. We're speaking to President Thabo Mbeki, Head of State of the Republic of South Africa, following his State of the Nation address on Friday. Mr President, good evening, and thank you very much for joining us.

President Thabo Mbeki: Good evening.

Tsepiso Makwetla: And hosting us here at Tuynhuys in Parliament. Good evening, I'm Tsepiso Makwetla. Joining me in this discussion with the President is Dr Snuki Zikalala, group executive news and current affairs. Dr Zikalala, good evening, welcome.

Dr Snuki Zikalala: Good evening, Tsepiso.

Tsepiso Makwetla: Mr President, your State of the Nation address, there were a lot of expectations around it. And notably you quoted from Charles Dickens, "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." But you're very clear about the fact that you disagree with some of those crossroads that Dickens spoke about. Why would you disagree if this is how people generally feel?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, I mean, we thought that we should raise the matter because indeed, you know, many people around the country have been expressing some concern about where the country is going because they see from their perspective some things which go wrong. I mean, the first thing of course is electricity. An emergency which descended upon people without warning. Because we've always known that we've got plentiful electricity and so on, and suddenly you've got these outages. It suggests there must be something wrong. Not just with Eskom, but more generally. And other things of that kind. So we thought it was important to acknowledge that, that there are people who've got fears, who might think that something has changed or something is changing in a negative direction. And so that's why we thought we should raise the matter, because I'm quite convinced that essentially the country continues to move ahead in the directions that it has moved in the last... indeed first 14 years of our democracy. You know, even the electricity crisis and other things that have happened, you know people sort of feel a bit shaken about the future. But I thought it was important to make a point that no the country hasn't lost course, it hasn't lost direction. And that the programmes and the directions in which the government has been taking the country for these last 14 years, those directions are not going to change.

Tsepiso Makwetla: Mr President, you used two words. You speak about change but you said negative change. And also going back to the Dickens example, what if people were to say referring to the political atmosphere in the country that indeed there has been negative change, that it's not perceived. What would you respond to that?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, people would have to say what it is that they're talking about. And if you take, I suppose... I don't know why you're being shy... you're probably referring for instance to the ANC conference in December. One of the notable things about that conference is again that if you look at the policy decisions that were taken by the conference, the decisions adopted there, they don't change policy in any way. Whether you're talking about economic matters or social matters or any other matter, they really basically reaffirmed the correctness of the policies that we've been pursuing. It might be that people have a different sense, a perception perhaps that there's some radical change in terms of the political direction in which we're going, and there isn't. As I say that you go through any of the resolutions that were adopted there, they essentially... the country stays on the same course. Those policy decisions reaffirmed the correctness of the policies that we've been pursuing. So whichever way people read what came out of the Polokwane conference of the ANC, I'm saying the fact of the matter is that it didn't change the policy direction in which the country is going.

Dr Snuki Zikalala: Mr President, but are people not sort of... the changes that happened in Polokwane in terms of leadership changes, did they bring... in some areas it brought negatives and some areas it brought positives. In some areas it brought tensions. How do you allay people's fears and tensions because of these changes, especially within the political leadership of the ANC? Though the programme of the policies of the ANC intact, the economic policies intact, but there was that radical change of leadership within the ANC. And so there is what you call apprehension within certain areas of the society.

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, that's a matter I must address to the ANC. The ANC must address... would address that particular issue. But you know as you were saying Tsepiso, quite correctly, the State of the Nation address is delivered by the President of the Republic to reflect on government policies and government programmes. And in that context to talk indeed about the more... the wider society, about where the country is going from the point of view of the government. And so as I say Polokwane didn't change anything about which way we should take the country in terms of the economy, in terms of education, in terms of agriculture, in terms of health. In terms of all sorts of things. So indeed people might have their different varying reactions to the leadership changes, but those leadership changes did not signify a change in terms of direction.

Tsepiso Makwetla: Mr President, I go back to your saying you do not believe it is the worst of times. But this energy crisis certainly has brought about a sense that there's either a loss of control in terms of how the situation came about and how capable the government is of dealing with it. So using Charles Dickens, that analogy, and going back and saying I don't believe it's the worst of times, could you possibly be misinterpreted as not agreeing with how grave some people feel the situation is?

President Thabo Mbeki: No I mean... we... there wasn't time during the presentation of the State of the Nation address to address, to explain where the problem of electricity comes from. The problem of electricity comes from growth. It comes from the growth and the development of the country. Not from a country going down, but a country going up, with the growth of the economy. Which you would know even from... if you look at this from the point of view of the information put out by Statistics South Africa. You'd notice that on a number of occasions they have had to review the figures that they've issued for instance about the gross domestic product, and revise them upwards. Because the system and the models they were using were tending to underestimate the size of the economy, the rate of growth of the economy. And so they published those figures and we all of us plan on that basis. And in the practise then they are shown to be wrong. So that's why they would then revise upwards the growth rates. So that's part of what has put pressure on electricity supplies. And the second of course is the very big electrification programme generally of households. Both urban and rural. Again resulting in a bigger uptake in terms of electricity. And what that did is whereas Eskom had over the years tried to ensure that it maintains what they call a reserve margin, something like 16% capacity to produce more electricity, in periods where the electrical demand... demand for electricity shoots up, that reserve margin went down as more people got to use electricity, with the result that when you have demand peaking then the system couldn't cope. It's born... the electricity emergency is born out of positive development in the country. It's because... it's like you see this thing on the roads. It's clear that in many instances, particularly around the big cities, our roads are not coping with the volume of traffic. It doesn't signify a breakdown, it signifies that more people are buying cars. And the only way people are going to buy more cars is because more people have got money to buy cars. It was... you see, the problem was a problem of an underestimation of the demand for electricity, and therefore planning for increases in demand of electricity which were wrong. Whereas we should have planned for higher rates of growth and therefore higher rates of demand for electricity, and therefore intervene with regard to creating... building new generating capacity earlier than we actually did. So it comes from... I'm saying the problems around electricity arise not from negative factors, but they arise from positive factors, and I think we got ourselves persuaded to be more on the pessimistic side about that growth. To believe more when somebody says, well, you know you're growing at 2%. And somebody else says no but you're growing at 4. The tendency has been let's believe the one who says 2. But that results in wrong planning.

Tsepiso Makwetla: Mr President, let's explore that issue of energy and the impact around it when we return from the break.

(Break)

Tsepiso Makwetla: Welcome back, you're watching SABC2, a special broadcast with President Thabo Mbeki following his State of the Nation address. We're coming to you live from Tuynhuys here in Parliament. Mr President, just before we went on the break we were speaking about the energy crisis and the factors surrounding that. You used words such as underestimation, we spoke about the issue of planning. And it is because of these things that some people feel that then somebody must take accountability. Somebody then needs to be fired to show that the government is sincerely saying we understand, we did something, somewhere wrong.

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, I actually don't understand, Tsepiso, that kind of thinking myself. I don't. You see, the... we've got a problem to solve here. It might make a good story for the SABC that somebody has been fired. We've got a problem to solve here. I'm saying that in part all of us, everybody in the country, misread what was happening to this economy. You see it everywhere. As I say, look at the roads and look at harbour and the railways and all sorts of things like that. Because generally the... I was saying that you know people tended to... you find it more comfortable to make an underestimate, to be more pessimistic. And that results in wrong planning. It's not like it's because Snuki Zikalala is not turning up at work to switch on the lights that you have a problem, it isn't like that. So we have to respond to the problem that we have. And as you know we've said that immediately let's look at this question of conservation of the use of electricity, and various measures have been announced...

Tsepiso Makwetla: Mr President, with due respect, if I may interrupt you. If you look at the 2006 National Electricity Regulator of South Africa (NERSA) report on the Koeberg power outages, one of the words that came out quite frequently was negligence. There was even mention of irregular maintenance. So as much as I hear the President say as a country we need to take responsibility for that, the South African public might argue and say on the issue of leadership somebody was tasked with overseeing those things, why does that person not take accountability and therefore take the fall?

President Thabo Mbeki: No, Tsepiso, I'm saying we've got a problem to solve. You might be happy to say one individual sacked somewhere or the other. It's not going to give you electricity. We... there are problems, problems of maintenance at Eskom, which they themselves have raised publicly. And again you know the... that problem of maintenance was... it became a problem so that you... whatever routine you had to address the maintenance issue, the routine was overtaken by the objective development in terms of demand for electricity. So the routine might have been alright at certain levels of economic activity and demand for electricity therefor. And at other stages when the demand is much higher then those routines have to be changed. It's not... there's nobody, there's nobody at Eskom or Minerals and Energy, or Public Enterprises who was not working, who was not attending to their thing, to their particular task as a result of which you get this thing. I think reading, reading as though there was some person there who was sitting doing nothing, sleeping instead of working is a wrong one. And I think it's a wrong direction to look at, and it's a wrong direction in which to point the country. And I think it's a cul-de-sac. I mean, you can sack as many people as you like, it's not going to bring the electricity. What we've got to do is to address the actual challenges that we face.

Dr Snuki Zikalala: Mr President, you spoke about business unusual. What has really changed despite the electricity crisis that you spoke about, when you say it's now business unusual?

President Thabo Mbeki: You will see, Snuki, that we have been saying this thing for a long time now, and we've just been talking about it now, that basically the policy directions in which the country's going are correct. The policy positions of the government are correct. And so the principal task we face is not to elaborate new policies. The principal task we face is to ensure that the policies that have been decided are implemented. And I'm saying that... I was saying then in the State of the Nation address, that we've got to address that matter of implementation in a new way. It probably comes back to the same matter of this is the way that we have worked for the last five years or whatever, that we should say we should not work in the same way as we have worked in the last five years. You need more energy, more application, more attention to detail, all sorts of things like that. To make sure that it's correct policy positions, translate into change in much shorter periods of time. So we've got to do things differently. That's the point that we're making. And I'm quite sure that that is a perfectly thing to do, and that's what we must do.

Dr Snuki Zikalala: Mr President, the ID is calling for a vote of non confidence on you as a result of handling of the electricity crisis, and the DA saying they'll propose dissolving the National Assembly. What's your opinion about that?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, they can do that. I suppose they have a right to do things like that. Sure, I mean, we'll see what they do. I have doubts myself about whether they... even if they combined, the DA and the ID, I doubt if they'd be able to persuade Parliament to take decisions of that kind.

Tsepiso Makwetla: Mr President, you were speaking about government policy and how nothing has changed and you at some point even mentioned that the fundamentals are in place. But there is a concern and some economists have even sounded the alarm that growth is slowing down, coupled with various factors. How does this impact on government's objectives of, for instance, unemployment, of alleviating poverty?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, I mean the... again, I'm repeating myself, the... we are not going to change policies. And indeed I said this is the penultimate State of the Nation address for the current government. You know the elections are coming next year, so I think it would be very foolish to try now to add so late in the day of the current Parliament and government any radically new policies. So economic growth may very well slow down, as economic growth is slowing down in the United States and all sorts of other countries in the world. It may very well slow down, but that doesn't change the direction in which the country is going. And what... so we've said, I mean, for instance with regard to the economy that the process of the naturalisation of the country must continue, and therefore we must implement the industrial policy action plan. And that's why I said that it's two and a half billion rand set aside for that industrialisation process, it won't stop therefore. As well as an additional five billion rand in terms of tax incentives, to encourage the growth of industry, manufacturing and so on. So there may very well be a slowdown, but it doesn't change the character, the nature, the direction in which the country would develop.

Tsepiso Makwetla: Mr President, let's leave it right there for the moment. We continue our conversation with President Thabo Mbeki on questions arising from his State of the Nation address. Don't go away.

(Break)

Tsepiso Makwetla: Welcome back, you're watching a special broadcast here on SABC2, in conversation with President Thabo Mbeki on his State of the Nation address. Mr President, just to go back to some of the issues arising from that address. There was a lot of anxiety prior to your address on the issue of the Scorpions. And you mentioned in your speech that at some point towards the end of March there will be an engagement with Parliament on the process. What will inform that engagement? I mean, in terms of if you look at the statement made by the ANC's National Executive Committee (NEC) on what should happen with the Scorpions, you yourself mentioned the Khampepe Commission recommendations. Which line will government be following and implement in this proposal?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, I thought I'd explained this. You see, we... indeed Judge Khampepe, as [unclear] sat on this judicial commission, made certain recommendations. We thought that in fact you see the Scorpions were set up to specialise on organised crime. That the first thing that we must address as government is issue of organised crime. So we did a review of the criminal justice system as I indicated, but not only dealing with the matter of organised crime but the system as a whole. And you see you would find that in terms of the government structures you have the DSO, the Scorpions. As I was saying, constituted specifically to focus on organised crime. The police have a division which... specialising on organised crime. You have the Financial Intelligence Centre which is focusing on organised crime. You have National Intelligence, the South African Secret Service, the Customs Services. All of these deal with organised crime. So the challenge for the government was to say what do we do around this whole area of organised crime? And it couldn't be just the Scorpions, what about the other elements in the government system that deal with that? So the review of the criminal justice system therefore had to go beyond just the Scorpions. So I said in Parliament on Friday that the Ministers of Justice and Safety and Security will address all of the details of these matters next week. So I can understand people just [unclear] Scorpions, Scorpions. But in fact it's not just the Scorpions in the country that are dealing with organised crime. And you couldn't deal with the Scorpions as a kind of standalone thing. You had to deal with it in context of organised crime. The thing that's very special... that is particular about the Scorpions is that it is placed together with the National Prosecuting Authority. None of these other institutions that fight organised crime are there. And that is one matter that is specific to the Scorpions, and therefore that is a matter that Judge Khampepe addressed. And it's a matter that we then had to address in the context of the overall review. Now as I said the ministers will give details about this thing, and certainly the view of the government is that you've got to deal with this thing in a... together, in an integrated way. You couldn't just talk Scorpions and not talk about organised crime division in the police service, and what's the relation between them, what do they do together. Issues that arose, one of the issues that arose about the Scorpions was that the law doesn't allow the Scorpions to undertake intelligence work. But it raises a problem. Because that's an investigative unit, the Scorpions. But how do you investigate where you are prohibited from carrying out intelligence? So I'm saying there are various matters of this kind. Whereas... and then you'd say, alright, even if then it is... doesn't have the right to legally to carry out intelligence work, then how does it link up with the organs that deal with intelligence? So it's a complex matter, it's not merely a matter of just one unit.

Tsepiso Makwetla: But without being pedantic, Mr President, I think the concern is whether or not ultimately the intention by government, the intention by government, the intention by the ANC in its resolutions is to keep the Scorpions operating as a unit which some people say...

President Thabo Mbeki: The thing to do... I'm saying the thing to focus on is the Scorpions were established to fight organised crime. The issue that arises is whether or not the government continues, determined to fight organised crime. And indeed I said this very clearly, that this remains a principal matter of focus, it must be a principal matter of focus. So at the end of the day whatever happens in terms of that or comprehensive review of the criminal justice system, the question that must be answered is whether we have strength and the capacity to fight organised crime or weakened it. And indeed I was saying on Friday we must make sure that we in fact increase the capacity to fight organised crime. You see, for it may very well for you be when this obsession about one institution of government, but we are government. It can't be just an obsession about one institution of government that's fighting organised crime, it's got to be about the totality of the institutions that we have. And I'm saying that the government remains very, very firmly committed to ensuring that our capacity to fight organised crime is enhanced, not reduced.

Dr Snuki Zikalala: Now Mr President all that you're saying to us and the public is that the Scorpions won't be dissolved but will be realigned.

President Thabo Mbeki: I keep saying, Snuki, the minister will explain all of these things today. We can spend a whole hour discussing this, because we are dealing with a complex thing. I'm talking about the criminal justice system as a whole. The fact of the matter is whatever happens to the Scorpions, the fact of the matter we will try to ensure that our capacity to fight organised crime, even maintaining... maintaining the specialisation, the specialist nature of the capacities that were in the... at least were supposed to be in the Scorpions, you don't lose that either. That's the outcome, that's what you must get at the end.

Dr Snuki Zikalala: Mr President, you said that you do have trust in the former Police Commissioner, Jackie Selebi. Now that he's been charged and of course has not appeared in court, is that trust still there?

President Thabo Mbeki: I don't know in what context now that was said. I mean, what I'd said in the past was if anybody brought me evidence to show that the Commissioner of Police, National Commissioner, had engaged in criminal wrongdoing of course we will act. And what happened, again I think I've explained this thing, is that the National Prosecuting Authority they came to me to say they had received allegations about criminal misconduct on the past of the National Commissioner of Police. We're investigating those allegations, and I said fine. And then they would say that they would like me to assist them with regard to those investigations, I said fine. And so where they said for instance we would now like to interview the National Commissioner of Police, fine I spoke to him, they interview him. We'd now like to gain access to certain documentation that the Police Service has, fine. So I do that they can access to that information. So... and that's all that happened. And at the end of it all they say that we now think that we can charge National Commissioner of Police, I say okay. And therefore then he went on leave from his job, so that the prosecutors can then do what they believe is correct. So, that's what happened.

Tsepiso Makwetla: Mr President, certainly a lot of other issues arising from your State of the Nation address, we will continue with those subjects when we return.

(Break)

Tsepiso Makwetla: Hello and good evening, and if you've just joined us you're watching a special broadcast here on SABC2, we're speaking to President Thabo Mbeki, President of the Republic of South Africa, on the back of his State of the Nation address. Mr President, we've been going through various issues arising from your address. One of the issues you spoke about was education and one government objective in 2004, you said yourself, was that by the end of that year you hope for a situation in which no child remains studying under a tree. Yet that is still a reality in certain parts of the country.

President Thabo Mbeki: Yes, no doubt that is true. The... you know the system, the South African constitutional system of government. Schools fall under the provinces, and indeed every year if you look at the budget, every year we... national government allocates funds to the provinces to be able to do their work as far as schools is concerned, include a capital budget for dealing with schools. And it's true that in some provinces they have not moved as fast as we wanted them to move. So it's a matter that we raise all the time, about the need for the provinces really to complete this process of removing kinds of schools that are physically in terms of their school buildings themselves, they are not the sort of buildings that you would want to put children in. But sure, it's true that in some provinces they haven't made as much progress as we wanted to.

Tsepiso Makwetla: Mr President, if that is the case, you also then spoke of accelerating no fees schooling systems, and that objective against what you have just said, that government set a target for achieving something and has been unable to do so, one would ask the question are you then not getting ahead of yourself? Should you not be concentrating on ensuring on achieving one objective before you move onto the next one?

President Thabo Mbeki: There's no reason why we can't achieve both. There's no reason that, you know... to say, to make sure that people, children who come from poor families don't have to carry this burden of having to pay fees. You can't say that that should wait until we've built a better school. I am saying you can do both. Must do both. Increase the number of no fee paying schools, while you attend to the matter of schools that might not be physically not be in good shape. As indeed I am sure you'd have to attend to all other matters with regard to the educational system. And I don't think you can... it would be correct to sequence them. To say we finish this first and then we come to another one tomorrow. When I think we've got the means to do both at the same time.

Dr Snuki Zikalala: Mr President, you announced during the State of the Nation address that children at school, they'll be taught an oath of allegiance to the country. What does it mean? What made you to think about that?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, a pledge, a pledge. You see, I mean all of us had been talking now, the country has been talking and trying to do something about this for a long time, this whole issue of moral regeneration. Of ensuring that the society's informed by a certain value system, such that we are able to deal with other matters whether it's crime or misbehaviour, misconduct of one kind or the other. And we believe as government that indeed it is a very important matter. And that it would be good to start even at... during those school years. I mean, if you look at other situations in the States... take the United States for instance. The United States in the school system has for many, many years has had the same system. So that as the children grow up you're taught about... you value human life, human solidarity, you know, be aware. Let's all inculcate this value system and in all of us, so that as they grow up this is where they come from, that's what should inform their behaviour. But we would want this matter also discussed by society as a whole. So again as I said the Minister of Education will initiate that programme this week. There is also a youth pledge, along the same lines, much longer than the one that you would expect the schoolchildren to make every morning. But it's really targeted at ensuring that our youth grow up within the context, understanding that there are certain values that we should all of us respect. Values which would really govern our behaviour.

Dr Snuki Zikalala: Mr President, coming back to education and training, there's a big problem of skills in the country itself, and yet you have sector education and training authorities (SETAs) who don't spend money. Some of the SETAs have had to turn back money, something like 20 million rand, money which is not claimed by employers. What are you going to do with the SETAs? Because they're definitely not producing the goods that are required in the country.

President Thabo Mbeki: Some.

Dr Snuki Zikalala: Some.

President Thabo Mbeki: Some, some SETAs indeed are behaving in the way that you are saying but some of them are performing very well. So again you see this is part of the challenge that we face. It's the way our systems work here. SETAs are basically in the hands of the particular industries and the trade unions in those industries. It's true that the Minister of Labour has general oversight over all of these. And so the process in which we are engaged now, we're engaging all of the SETAs currently, to look at this question, particularly this question of output and use of funds that they have or non-use. But also we are looking at them from the point of view what I was saying about implementing the industrial policy action plan, which industries are we focusing on, and therefore what should we do in those particular sectors to make sure that you address the skills issue. So there is very comprehensive work that is going on about reviewing the whole SETA system. Because why do some succeed and others fail? It suggests that it's not a systemic thing, but it's particular weaknesses in particular sectors of the economy.

Tsepiso Makwetla: Mr President, one of government's and certainly yours stated goal is the issue of poverty alleviation, and looking on not only millennium development goals (MDGs) but looking at this current administration. How far are we from achieving that goal and what is the link with the national war room? Is there a strong link in terms of helping government then achieve those goals before that...

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, all elements, I mean all elements of government policy over the years have been focused on the matter of poverty, in all its various manifestations. The issue of that national war room arises from we're saying that as government because of the extensive support system in government for poor families, we actually have a very extensive register of poor households. Because they're already receiving assistance, so people come, my name is so and so, this is my address, this is my ID number, and the base of which they get support of one kind or another. We already have. So we know which household is under strain, and we're therefore saying that let's then get into each household and rather than just have blanket programmes, general programmes which do reach people, let's go household to household. Because it's there. I'm saying we've got the register because they're already receiving assistance. What then do we do with this household to make sure that we sped up the problem of addressing poverty in that particular household. You see, you can see the detailed amount of work that has got to go into that. It's more than saying you know we are raising the child support grant age to whatever, and then you make money available for that. That's fine. That's fine as far as it goes, but to go beyond that is as I say to come down to these individual households, and that's why you need a [unclear] to be able to do that, that war room on poverty.

Tsepiso Makwetla: And Mr President on the issue of foreign land ownership, you said in your address that the goal is not to prohibit from foreign land ownership, but the question is when the concern arose over the issue of foreign land ownership it was the fact that there is bias towards foreigners who have the economic means to buy prime land. Why not for instance consider long term leases like other African countries?

President Thabo Mbeki: Sure, and that's one [unclear]. That's one of the approaches to... that has got to be adopted. What we are saying is the... we have got to complete the audit so that we actually know which land is owned by whom. Because that's not clear now. The manner in which people registered their title deeds and so on is not clear, it's not necessarily so that a foreigner will be registered as a foreigner. He might have a locally registered trust or something, which disguises the fact that the person who's actually owning this thing is a foreigner. That audit needs to be done so that we have a more specific... not the perception is. It must be the actuality. What is the actual situation, and how does it impact on national goals? I mean, where you might have somebody buying land in an area that was developed, that was reserved for different kind of housing, and they say no I'm going to build one castle here for myself, which would conflict with the national goals. Those things have got to be looked at. But the first thing is do know the reality, what is the actual situation.

Tsepiso Makwetla: Mr President, let's take a quick break and we'll continue here with our discussion with President Thabo Mbeki on this special broadcast on SABC2.

(Break)

[Note: Broadcast of interview does not resume after the ad break. SABC2 at this point resumes with normal scheduled programming]

Issued by: Government Communications (GCIS)
10 February 2008