MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY
Tuesday, 10 February 1998 (at 09h30)
PRESENT:
Chairperson: Ms J Y Love
African National Congress
Mr J D Arendse, Mr N L Diale, Mr M W Duna, Mr J Z Kati, Mrs M C Mabuza, Mr M M Masala, Ms N B Mfono, Mrs M L Ngwenya, Mrs B M Ntuli, Mrs M S Seperepere, Bishop L J Tolo
National Party
Mrs M J Badernhorst, Mr Z D Mnguni, Mr M O Robertsen, Dr E A Schoeman, Mr A S Van der Merwe, Mr I D van Zyl
Inkatha Freedom Party
Mr J H W Mentz, Mr R R Mbongwe
APOLOGIES
The following members tendered apologies:
1. Mr M K D Davhana
2. Mrs R T Mabudhafhasi
The Chairperson welcome all present in the meeting.
Minister Prof K Asmal, Mr M Muller, Mr T Sokutu, Judge A Geldenhuys Mr C Audie, Mr H Kavin and Ms R Steyn from the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry were in attendance.
The Committee continued with the discussion on the draft National Water Bill (Questions and clarifications).
1. A brief presentation by Ms R Stey relating the Bill to the costitution
Ms Steyn explained to the Committee that the National Water Bill is non racist and non-sexist in content and character. It seeks to translate the constitutional mandate for reform. She also mentioned that the bill is an attempt to address and resolve the inequalities of the past.
Purpose of the Act
The Committee was informed that the purpose of the Act is to provide fundamental changes to the law relating to water resources and provide protection in the use of water resources.
She mentioned that the preamble of the Bill gives effect to the preamble of the Constitution of the country.
Governance
The Committee was informed that the bill is a section 75 bill. It seeks to ensure that the National government acts according to its constitutional mandate for delivery of water to the people.
Rights
Ms Steyn explained that section 38 has provision for administration and justice for example, the requirement for procedural fairness in dealing with persons as far as the use of water and the guarantee of a right to water users to be heard. She further explained that the right to use water is regulated by the bill. The issue of expropriation is intended to be carried out for for the benefit of the public.
2. Questions and clarification
Chapter3: Protection of water resources
The Committee wanted clarity on various issues among other things the choping down of trees along the river banks on the basis that they cause environmental damage.
The delegation's response was that the trees along the river banks can prevent the ecology of the rivers by sucking a lot of water and they can shed seeds thereby spreading the problem.
Chapter 4: Use of Water
The Committee wanted clarity on the position of DWAF with regard to the use of spring water for irrigation purposes. Whether there is enough water stored for the future and the position regarding underground water. The Committee further wanted clarity as far as the expenses to be incurred as a result of having Water Management Agencies and Water Advisory Councils, and whether these agencies and councils have the capacity to implement the Act.
The DWAF delegation informed the Committee that section 25 of the bill makes provision for procedures to be followed to obtain a licence to use underground water. It was explained that underground water should be used for people in Northern Province settlements which include large communities and not for a few individuals. The delegation also informed the committee that licensing for storage of water will also need to be applied for. The reason for is that dams lose a lot of water through evaporation. On the question, of CMA's capacity and expenses to be incurred: the DWAF response was that the CMA's would be established soon and that the DWAF does have the capacity to implement the Act. It was also explained that water users will pay for the services and that any risk commitment will be incurred by DWAF.
The Committee was further informed that the idea for licensing is not for profiteering but to regulate the shortage of water and to share water equally among the users. It was mentioned that the Minister will always consult with the affected parties in all matters relating to the control of activities. The idea is to prevent all activities that might pollute the rivers.
Chapter 5: Financial provisions
The Committee wanted clarity on various issues: the basis on which compensation is carried out; the legality of expropriation; whether non-payment of charges will attract penalties; and the impact of bill on emerging farmers.
The Committee was told that there will be compensation for reduction of water use only when it significantly undermines a person's livelihood. It was explained that the legality of expropriation isbased on the possibility of compensation.
Chapter 6: Responsibilities and powers of the Minister
no comment
Chapter 7: General powers of the DG
The Committee wanted clarity about the way in which the bill gives to the DG those powers which have been relinquished by the Minister; and whether the DG can delegate authority to subordinates.
The DWAF responded by informing the Committee that powers are vested in the Minister but the priniples of division of powers allows delegation of power. The powers delegated to the DG are temporary until Catchment Management Agencies are established. It was further explained that the powers of the Minister are at the centre whereas those of the DG are spreaded over.
Chapter 8: Catchment Management Agencies
The Committee wanted clarity with regard the process of establishing and disestablishing. Also about the function of CMA's.
The Committee was told that no set regulations in terms of establishing CMA's. It was explained that the CMA's are established to ensure representativity in management structures and are established to look at particular catchments. The Minister receives nominations and he can use his or her discretion, as prescribed in the Bill, in terms of procedures.
Chapter 9: Water users association
The Committee wanted clarity around the issue of Irrigation Boards-whether these boards will involve the small/emerging farmers in their association.
The Committee was told that the concept of a Water Users Association is to allow other paople who use water, not necessarily only for irrigation but also for conservation, to be part of the Association. The idea of puting the emerging farmers on such boards in the whole process is seen as desirable.
Chapter 10: Establishment of Advisory Committees
The Committee wanted clarity whether the existing Water Advisory Council will be regarded as an Advisory Committee established under the new bill; and whether there is any attempt to ensure representativity in these committees.
The Committee was told that although the mandate to establish the Water Advisory Committee is not included in this bill it will become such a Committee. It was also mentioned that there are attempts being made to ensure representativity but that is sometimes hindered by a lack of skills from the previously disadvantaged people.
Chapter 11: International water management
The Committee wanted clarity whether the Minister has the powers to sign privatisation agreements. Who is paying for the water from Katsi Dam which is diverted to the Vaal Dam.
The Committee was told that the the Minister does have the power to sign privatisation agreements and that the intention is to enable the Ministry to do things jointly with other countries. The Lesotho Highlands Water Project was mentioned as an example whereby several organisation and institutions were established by the affected countries. It was also explained that the provision allows the Minister to establish contacts or reach agreements and set up cooperatives with neighbouring countries. With regards to the payment of water from Katsi Dam to Vaal Dam, the Committee was told that the government provided payment largely for construction purpose and also that the that the Katsi Dam is a very large insurance which ensures that water will always be available for Gauteng. The estimate assett value is around R20b and the profit is around R3m.
Chapter 12, 13, 14 and 15:
No comments
Chapter 16: Gathering of information
The Committee wanted to know who will have access to information gathered or acquired by the DWAF.
The Committee was informed that the intention of the DWAF is to put in place an information system. The limitations regarding access are still being drafted throughn the Open Democracy Bill.
Chapter 17: Appeals and dispute resolution
The Committee raised concerns about the powers given to the Minister; whether the provisions in the new bill do take the interests of the poor into consideration; and what financial costs the DWAF will incur as a result of this exercise.
The Committee was told that there will be an Appeal Board which will have a Head and Deputy Head as permanent staff. The other staff complement will be employed on a part-time basis and according to the sittings of the Board. As far as provisions for the poor, the Committee was told that there are limitations on making representations before the Board. It was emphasised that dispute on water rights is a dispute like any other right.
Chapter 18, 19 and 20:
No comments
Schedules:
no comment
The Chairperson thanked the delegation from the DWAF.
3. Process of the Bill
The Chairperson informed the Committee about the process to be followed in dealing with the draft National Water bill. That the hearings will be on the 16 - 17 March 1998. A press statement will be issued reminding the public about this bill. The DWAF through Minister Asmal have been calling for comments, those comments received will be made available to the Committee and will continue to do so with other written submissions. The DWAF will be invited to respond as to what they believe is apropriate. In the presence of Mr Caven and Advocate Kellner the Committee will deal with bill clause by clause in the beginning of next session.
The Meeting deliberated and adjourned at 12:30 until 11 February 1998.